Avataaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar

[runespoor]

I may have sort of spent the last five days watching the whole three seasons of Avatar and running all over the place in search of fic and meta (and getting occasionally sucked into TV Tropes).

Now I want to write about how my interpretation of the Southern Raiders is completely different from everyone else in fandom, or about how Zuko is a dweeb of Sasuke-ish proportions, or about how I am Officially Ignoring the fact that the Avatar wiki says Suki is 15 when I can find no trace of that piece of crack on her Nick profile, or about the fact that Iroh-and-Zuko may well be my favourite relationship on the show (and you have no idea how weird that is for me). Squeeeeeeeeee.

I may have succeeded in getting me a new fandom.

How long the fling will last, now, is up to debate. *gets through occasionnal cycles of utter obsession that never make it to here, due to being far too short lived and far too passive*

Comments

[loveroftheflame.livejournal.com]

Welcome to the madness lol!

[runespoor7.livejournal.com]

Sounds about right. The shipwank, it's scary. 0_0

Your icon is giving me "I knew you had a thing with Haru!" flashbacks.

[loveroftheflame.livejournal.com]

Indeed. And yeah, Haru is my baby. I looooves me some pretty boy. lol!

[runespoor7.livejournal.com]

There's pretty of alllll kind in Avatar. Though I must say, Katara's Come Hither Eyes during the Katara/Aang dance made me feel like a baaad person, because dude. 14.

I was a bit sad that Haru was around again for a few episodes in season 3, and just never on screen.

[loveroftheflame.livejournal.com]

Oh girl, so much pretty. :D

Yeah, I wished they had done more with both Haru and Teo actually. I love them both but hey! That's what fanfic is for! ^_~

[runespoor7.livejournal.com]

I knoooow. I love Teo, for some reason. :D (Do you have recs?)

[lita-of-jupiter.livejournal.com]

I can't really blame you... I also love Iroh and Zuko's relationship

[runespoor7.livejournal.com]

Iroh-and-Zuko: PERFECT. On every possible ground. Just... perfect.

[lita-of-jupiter.livejournal.com]

those two have it all

[zamkenobi.livejournal.com]

Naturally you've decided to get into a fandom that's possibly on it's way to dying now that the show's over ^_^;.

What exactly are you're thoughts on the Southern Raiders? Because I'll be honest, I hated the episode and I'd love to hear your take on it. I'm always open to having my mind changed (or my position reinforced, depending on your point of view).

[runespoor7.livejournal.com]

All coincidental, I swear. Ah, we'll see. it's not like I've never suffered from Why Is The Fandom Gone (and/or Inexistent) Syndrom before. ^_^;

I love the ep, because I've got a kink for good guys having their moral compasses severely disturbed by personal issues, especially revenge. But I've looked around and seen that everyone sees the ending as, basically, saying that Aang was right all along about what Katara needed. I disagree with that. She couldn't realise that she couldn't/wouldn't kill the guy until she tried to.

Before she went on her quest for revenge, she had two possibilities, revenge or forgiveness. She couldn't forgive him, so it only makes sense that she'd go for revenge. The other thing she could've done was... do nothing - the same she'd done until then, except that suddenly she knew how to find the person who had killed her mother. It's not a piece of information you can forget; either she could resolve to let it go (implying forgiveness), either she could go after him and extract revenge.

It's only after she's tried killing that she can realise she can't kill him. It's important that it's not a decision, because a decision would lead her to make up her mind about her feelings for the killer, which we know from the end is not the case.

In fact, this is a one-episode-sized reproduction of Zuko's character arc: the bad decisions (Katara's deciding to go for revenge, Zuko's choice in Ba Sing Se) are necessary to reach the good decision. Or to say it otherwise, you have to be in a certain situation to realise it's not what you wanted after all.

That was long and rambly. I'd like to know why you didn't like it, too.

[zamkenobi.livejournal.com]

I agree with you and a lot of other people. I think that Aang was right and forgiveness was the best option, but I definitely think that she needed to find that out for herself. I can see what you're saying.

Part of the reason I hate this episode might be personal disappointment. I thought that this episode would focus on Zuko and Katara's relationship, but it ended up focusing on Katara with Zuko along to merely advance Katara in the plot where she needed to go.

Let me start with Zuko. First off, Zuko's sarcasm with Aang and Sokka seemed really out of character to me. He worked so hard to be friends with them and suddenly he dismissed their opinions in an arrogant way that really made him look like an asshole. That was the first thing that irked me. Then Zuko seemed to want to get on Katara's good side, moral consequences be damned. I can understand him understanding how she feels, but I don't get why exactly he thought killing the man and taking revenge would help her mainly because he's never seemed the revenge type. Whenever someone hurt him (mainly Ozai and Azula) he would either blame it on himself or just take it in stride. He found out that his dad was planning to kill him and banished his mom. "Avatar's destiny" or not, if he were the type of person to take revenge, he would have done it right then and there.

But he doesn't even seem to get angry. Zuko seems like he only blows up at the little things and gets over them quickly. Yet he still considers violence as the answer (from his quote at the end) to Katara's problems, like killing her mother's killer would help her. The only possible explanation I can come up with in my head is that Zuko knows that he himself wouldn't do this kind of thing, but he doesn't necessarily consider it morally wrong. I guess I could see how that makes sense, but still...is it enough to make him help her torture a man? After seeing Katara bloodbend that soldier I think that he would have at least stopped and reconsidered what he was doing, now realizing what her thirst for revenge was turning her into, but he barely bats an eyelash. He looks surprised, but that's it. He's seen how kind Katara was before, and her hatred for him and her mother's killer is turning her into a monster. I don't really get how he can just stay the course and even taunt the people that she's about to torture/kill. Maybe not taunt, but pretty close. Killed her mother or not, there's just things decent people don't do to others. I wouldn't think that Zuko would want her to sink to the killer's level.

Again, it's probably personal. I really wanted Zuko to be the one to stop her because he's learned from his mistakes and doesn't want her to destroy herself this way. Instead he helps her. Damn you Mike and Bryan.

I'm cutting my comment in half because it's too long -_-;

[runespoor7.livejournal.com]

Ah, I'm not saying I think forgiveness was the right course of action. I personally am very forgiving of revenge, so of course that colours the way I look at it. ^^;

I see what you mean about Zuko's character. I remember being surprised when I saw the episode, because he's only been with the Gaang for a very short time, and yet he seems secure enough in his position to take the 'bad guy' stance. (Though you can arguably say that it's because he knows Aang trusts him enough - the Firebending Masters make it look that way.)

The only possible explanation I can come up with in my head is that Zuko knows that he himself wouldn't do this kind of thing, but he doesn't necessarily consider it morally wrong.

^ This is my personal understanding of his actions, as well.

I don't agree with your interpretation of Zuko's reaction to Katara's bloodbending, though. To me, his surprise and his lack of other reaction are justified by the fact that he didn't know about it beforehand. I've only watched the ep once so maybe I'm wrong, but I understood his reaction as first incomprehension at what is happening, and a few instants later, realising what Katara is doing.

Also, there's the fact that though Katara wasn't out of her mind with rage at that moment, which makes her use of torture very cold-blooded, but it's also enough so that she is able to recognise the man she's attacking isn't her mother's murderer. Which I think is key to her character, because to her it's personal, and she can't kill a man who is innocent of her mother's death, even though he's probably committed the same sort of actions himself. She puts the responsibility of her mother's death on the head of the one who killed her.

Hm, maybe that's also why she can't kill him, because to him, he was only carrying out his orders? Which makes the Fire Nation - or more precisely Ozai, since he's the one giving orders - the culprit after all, except that soldiers are also responsible for choosing to obey their orders. So the man was far from blameless. Or maybe I need to stop projecting my opinions.

How can you find peace in any situation hating a person? I've learned from personal experience that hatred is painful, and yet she still found peace despite that?

It's pretty clear at the end of the episode she hasn't found peace with that. It's shown as something she has to cope with, but there's no promise she'll ever be able to truly be at peace with it, and certainly not right at the end of the episode.

She's only reached closure in the sense that she knows she has done all she can do. And work from there.

On forgiving Zuko: I thought she did because he was the only one who helped her and apparently understood what she was going through, similar to their discussion in Ba Sing Se and nicely coming full circle.

Similarly, to me Zuko was projecting his own story through Katara's, which is arguably hinted at when he asks Aang what he's going to do about Lord Ozai - who is to Zuko both the person reponsible for taking his mother from him and his father. Either he helped her to work through his own issues either to help her work through hers. (I deserve the awkward sentence award.)

Too long for one comment ftw.

[runespoor7.livejournal.com]

Seeeeecond part.

Maybe I'm just bitter that Katara seemed to forgive Zuko through no redeeming action of his own. I really didn't want their relationship to turn out that way. It seemed like an episode to play up Aang's wisdom and get the mandatory "Katara forgives Zuko" out of the way while making Katara as dark as possible

I'd say Zuko had redeemed himself already by that point, so Katara forgiving him was much more about her journey than his.

And I disagree with your comment about Aang's wisdom; to me the point of the episode was actually to show that Aang isn't always right, because Katara not only isn't able to forgive the murderer, but she's also not even sure that not killing him was good or bad. And of course Zuko's "What are you going to do about my father?" and Aang's stricken look fit the same idea. Which is an earlier example of the misdirection that goes on during the finale.

(As for the shipping... admittedly I'm not a Zutara shipper, but I thought their having a common goal and working together and ninja and Zuko being determined but going occasionnally 'Ohshi-' wariness at Katara's >( was perfect grounds for pretty coworkers shippiness. Which doesn't fit the typical romantical shipping mold, but it's so cool.)

I probably haven't explained too well either. -_-

[zamkenobi.livejournal.com]

Ah, I'm not saying I think forgiveness was the right course of action. I personally am very forgiving of revenge, so of course that colours the way I look at it. ^^;

Yeah, I kind of figured that. I honestly think whether revenge helps you or not depends on what kind of person you are. Life is complicated, and different people need different things to get through life. I really have no idea, but I know that I'm the kind of person who if I ever tried to get back at someone I would immediately regret it, and I see Katara as the same way. Not that I identify with Katara very much, but I don't think that killing her mother's killer would have made her very happy at all.

She's only reached closure in the sense that she knows she has done all she can do. And work from there.

I think this makes sense. I guess I can live with it, but I think this is just a matter of me thinking that this episode could have been done so much better. It's a very strained form of closure in my opinion.

On forgiving Zuko: I thought she did because he was the only one who helped her and apparently understood what she was going through, similar to their discussion in Ba Sing Se and nicely coming full circle.

Meh...I don't think I'll ever completely come to terms with this, mainly because of Zuko's sarcasm and snarkiness towards Aang at the beginning. It seemed like they were dismissing Aang and thus making Zuko look in the wrong from the very beginning. Then there was his "you knew what Katara really needed" at the end really makes me think that Zuko considered Aang to be right and he was wrong. I mean, he practically said it, and it seems wrong for Zuko to gain Katara's forgiveness through a mistake, or at least what he considers to be one.

I'd say Zuko had redeemed himself already by that point, so Katara forgiving him was much more about her journey than his.

That's true, but at the same time hard for me to swallow. I guess her connecting her anger at him with the anger from the loss of her mother is plausible since they were talking about it when she started to trust him, but it just seems ridiculous for him to have to go that far for her to forgive him. Simply Zuko understanding her pain and being on her side doesn't really seem to be enough for her to forgive him in my eyes.

I wanted at least some conversation between them, one that showed Katara that Zuko not only was trying to get her to not hate him but was actually trying to help her. I just felt like even though that was clear, it was only because we know Zuko's a good person, not because the episode itself showed it. It looked like he was just trying to get the last member of the gaang on his side. I really think that one conversation where Zuko helped her come to terms with her mother's death would have fixed this problem.

And I disagree with your comment about Aang's wisdom; to me the point of the episode was actually to show that Aang isn't always right, because Katara not only isn't able to forgive the murderer, but she's also not even sure that not killing him was good or bad. And of course Zuko's "What are you going to do about my father?" and Aang's stricken look fit the same idea. Which is an earlier example of the misdirection that goes on during the finale.

I think Aang was wise and yet at the same time naive in this episode. I don't think they were necessarily saying that he was wrong by Katara finding closure and Zuko saying what he did, but I think they were just trying to show that it wasn't as simple as he made it out to be and it wasn't the only option. In real life, forgiveness is hard, and often it just simply isn't humanly possible. It might be the best option, but still isn't possible. Or is it even the best option at all for different people? Basically I think that they were trying to show that forgiveness is a noble, difficult, and sometimes even naive concept.

I used to be mainly a Zutara shipper, but I really lost most interest in it and all Avatar pairings in the third season up until the Western Air Temple. I fell in love with Toko there ^_^

[zamkenobi.livejournal.com]

Second Half.

Then there's Katara. I don't think her turning dark was really out of character because it's been foreshadowed for a little while, so it wasn't that much of a stretch. However, by all rights she should have gotten no closure out of this, but she needs to forgive Zuko to get onto to Aang angst, so of course she does. What I mean is that Katara only learns two things out of this journey: her mother's killer is pathetic, and she can't kill him. At the end of the episode she is just as angry about her death as before, she doesn't forgive him, nothing. There's no change other than she can't kill him. She can still forgive Zuko though, even though she was connecting her anger with her mother's killer, who she didn't forgive, with him.

I'm not sure how I can explain it, but I really don't see how Katara should have gained any closure, and I don't see how she forgave Zuko. I'm sure they were trying to show a complexity of reactions in this show, that forgiveness might truly be the right thing but often in real life it really isn't that easy, but to me Katara continuing to hate the soldier doesn't solve her problem even if she knew she couldn't kill him. Then again, I agree with Aang. I think forgiveness is the best option, and I don't really see how someone can find peace from the knowledge that they can't/won't kill a person THEY STILL HATE. How can you find peace in any situation hating a person? I've learned from personal experience that hatred is painful, and yet she still found peace despite that?

I guess my biggest questions are, "How can Katara gain gain any closure from knowing she can't kill him when she's obviously hates him as much as before?" and "How can Katara forgive Zuko when she didn't forgive the soldier who killed her mother, since she was projecting her anger at the soldier on Zuko, and she seems to be just as angry at him before?"

Maybe I'm just bitter that Katara seemed to forgive Zuko through no redeeming action of his own. I really didn't want their relationship to turn out that way. It seemed like an episode to play up Aang's wisdom and get the mandatory "Katara forgives Zuko" out of the way while making Katara as dark as possible and refusing to feed Zutara shippers with any real emotional interaction other than a hug.

I don't really think I've explained my position very well, but for some reason things always work better in my head than they do out of it. That and I haven't watched it since the day after it aired.