Well, Hiashi doesn't seem to have given up on her totally until she was 12 or so, when we see Kurenai's flashback of him telling her to do whatever she wants with Hinata because he doesn't care if she dies or not. Hanabi wasn't born until Hinata was about five or six, and unless she was a ninja genius from the moment she could walk, that leaves about another five years or so for her to get old enough to show that she was stronger than her sister and seal Hiashi's aggravation with Hinata.
So Hinata probably had about a decade before the Hyuuga collectively threw their hands up in disgust and said "she's useless, get her out of our sight" and since we see from Neji's flashback to her at three that she's always been timid and soft-natured (and Hiashi let her hide and cling to him then, not something a completely stern father would do) I'd say that it's more like Hinata was set against the "normal" Hyuuga persona from birth.
Yeah, but I don't think that sort of opinion sprang out from nowhere, so Hinata must have heard a lot of things with more or less the same meaning over the years. It probably didn't happen from the moment she was born - like you said, Hiashi didn't seem to act like an abusive father in the flashback. Otoh, in the flashback, Hizashi was still alive. It's possible that Hiashi, consciously or not, resents Hinata for being the indirect cause of his brother's death. Or he compared her to Neji and saw Neji as superior. Or both.
And even if Hiashi, at one point, was able or willing to look past Hinata's weakness/whatever, it's very possible that others did not. I'm thinking of the twins' father here, he seems like a charming man and it's obvious from the flashback that he still held a lot of weight in the Hyuuga.
In Neji's flashback, his father tells him that 'he is the most loved boy [or child? I think boy] in the Branch House', which I always found an ambiguous sentence; obviously it can refer to how much Neji's father/parents love him, but it can also mean that the Branch House as a whole loves Neji. And a plausible explanation or that would be that they noticed how talented he was. (I think the rest of what Hizashi says backs up this interpretation somewhat, but I don't have the manga with me, so I can't check).
I'd say that it's more like Hinata was set against the "normal" Hyuuga persona from birth.
I'm not sure I follow. I agree with Hinata having always been shy, but I don't see what you mean with the end of the sentence.
I don't think that sort of opinion sprang out from nowhere, so Hinata must have heard a lot of things with more or less the same meaning over the years.
Oh, I'm sure there were probably numerous attempts to turn Hinata into something more in line with Hyuuga "tradition". Once it became obvious that she would never stop being gentle and never live up to their standards, they abandoned her for Hanabi. Though, if Hanabi had never been born, I wouldn't be surprised if they had kept at her.
It probably didn't happen from the moment she was born - like you said, Hiashi didn't seem to act like an abusive father in the flashback.
There *is* also the scene where Hiashi is savagely bitching out three-year-old Hinata for her sloppy footwork, so it's obvious that he set (probably unfairly) high standards for Hinata and only started to ostracize her when it became obvious that she couldn't keep up.
Hinata never being able to please her father would certainly explain Kurenai's comment about how Hinata trained like mad, but always broke down and gave up if she ran into the slightest failure.
Otoh, in the flashback, Hizashi was still alive. It's possible that Hiashi, consciously or not, resents Hinata for being the indirect cause of his brother's death.
Yeah, I've always thought this myself, as it's extremely obvious that Hiashi has issues with a capital I with Hizashi and his death. Gee, Hinata just ends up as the focus of everyone else's unresolved angst, doesn't she? :)
Though, there's also the giant gaping plothole with Hiashi allowing Hinata to run around unsealed on missions where enemies could capture her and the Byakugan, which more or less spits in the face of Hizashi's sacrifice...but I put that down to Kishimoto being sloppy.
Or he compared her to Neji and saw Neji as superior. Or both.
Yeah, from what he tells Hanabi during the Chuunin exams, he knew Neji's talent well. OTOH, he was also completely stunned that he had the Kaiten, etc., so I wonder how much of a eye he was keeping on him, and how much of his knowledge came from indirect reports?
And even if Hiashi, at one point, was able or willing to look past Hinata's weakness/whatever, it's very possible that others did not.
Certainly, but it was probably a gradually escalating process--she wasn't hit with family disdain from the beginning, until Hanabi came along and showed her talent.
I'm thinking of the twins' father here, he seems like a charming man and it's obvious from the flashback that he still held a lot of weight in the Hyuuga.
That wasn't the twins' father, just a random Hyuuga elder. Their father's picture is just a black silhouette in the databook--if wrinkly guy was him, his picture would have been there instead. Their father's probably long dead, as I don't think Hiashi would be Head otherwise.
They finally added comment editing, so they can bloody well add long comment lengths too:
In Neji's flashback, his father tells him that 'he is the most loved boy [or child? I think boy] in the Branch House', which I always found an ambiguous sentence;
Is this from the anime? Because I just looked through the manga chapter that has Neji's flashback, and the only thing that Hizashi tells him is that he is "to live to protect her (Hinata)". Nothing about him being the most loved child: in fact, that sentence kinda contradicts Hizashi's later sentence to Hiashi, just before he leaves to die: "I've only shown my ugly side to Neji". That sentence kind of makes me wonder if Hizashi wasn't all that kind to Neji himself, though's most likely referring to his open hatred of the Main House.
I'm not sure I follow. I agree with Hinata having always been shy, but I don't see what you mean with the end of the sentence.
"Normal" Hyuuga=cold, pragmatic, unfeeling. The sort of personality that does what needs to be done and doesn't care about the suffering that might come with decisions (hi, curse seal). Neji's databook 2 entry says that he has a "Spartan" personality--he's extremely practical and completely ignores anything that he sees as unimportant.
Of course, this doesn't take timeskip Neji into account, but Neji's personality is much more in line with a "normal" Hyuuga than Hinata's is. One of the ways that Neji taunts Hinata during their fight is to say that she's a horrible shinobi because she's too gentle and avoids conflict. There are many ways you could describe the Hyuuga, but "gentle" is not one of them, and Hinata is definitely atypical in that respect.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2007-11-08 05:14 am (UTC)So Hinata probably had about a decade before the Hyuuga collectively threw their hands up in disgust and said "she's useless, get her out of our sight" and since we see from Neji's flashback to her at three that she's always been timid and soft-natured (and Hiashi let her hide and cling to him then, not something a completely stern father would do) I'd say that it's more like Hinata was set against the "normal" Hyuuga persona from birth.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-08 04:11 pm (UTC)And even if Hiashi, at one point, was able or willing to look past Hinata's weakness/whatever, it's very possible that others did not. I'm thinking of the twins' father here, he seems like a charming man and it's obvious from the flashback that he still held a lot of weight in the Hyuuga.
In Neji's flashback, his father tells him that 'he is the most loved boy [or child? I think boy] in the Branch House', which I always found an ambiguous sentence; obviously it can refer to how much Neji's father/parents love him, but it can also mean that the Branch House as a whole loves Neji. And a plausible explanation or that would be that they noticed how talented he was. (I think the rest of what Hizashi says backs up this interpretation somewhat, but I don't have the manga with me, so I can't check).
I'd say that it's more like Hinata was set against the "normal" Hyuuga persona from birth.
I'm not sure I follow. I agree with Hinata having always been shy, but I don't see what you mean with the end of the sentence.
wow, tl;dr. Sorry about this...
no subject
Date: 2007-11-12 10:26 pm (UTC)I don't think that sort of opinion sprang out from nowhere, so Hinata must have heard a lot of things with more or less the same meaning over the years.
Oh, I'm sure there were probably numerous attempts to turn Hinata into something more in line with Hyuuga "tradition". Once it became obvious that she would never stop being gentle and never live up to their standards, they abandoned her for Hanabi. Though, if Hanabi had never been born, I wouldn't be surprised if they had kept at her.
It probably didn't happen from the moment she was born - like you said, Hiashi didn't seem to act like an abusive father in the flashback.
There *is* also the scene where Hiashi is savagely bitching out three-year-old Hinata for her sloppy footwork, so it's obvious that he set (probably unfairly) high standards for Hinata and only started to ostracize her when it became obvious that she couldn't keep up.
Hinata never being able to please her father would certainly explain Kurenai's comment about how Hinata trained like mad, but always broke down and gave up if she ran into the slightest failure.
Otoh, in the flashback, Hizashi was still alive. It's possible that Hiashi, consciously or not, resents Hinata for being the indirect cause of his brother's death.
Yeah, I've always thought this myself, as it's extremely obvious that Hiashi has issues with a capital I with Hizashi and his death. Gee, Hinata just ends up as the focus of everyone else's unresolved angst, doesn't she? :)
Though, there's also the giant gaping plothole with Hiashi allowing Hinata to run around unsealed on missions where enemies could capture her and the Byakugan, which more or less spits in the face of Hizashi's sacrifice...but I put that down to Kishimoto being sloppy.
Or he compared her to Neji and saw Neji as superior. Or both.
Yeah, from what he tells Hanabi during the Chuunin exams, he knew Neji's talent well. OTOH, he was also completely stunned that he had the Kaiten, etc., so I wonder how much of a eye he was keeping on him, and how much of his knowledge came from indirect reports?
And even if Hiashi, at one point, was able or willing to look past Hinata's weakness/whatever, it's very possible that others did not.
Certainly, but it was probably a gradually escalating process--she wasn't hit with family disdain from the beginning, until Hanabi came along and showed her talent.
I'm thinking of the twins' father here, he seems like a charming man and it's obvious from the flashback that he still held a lot of weight in the Hyuuga.
That wasn't the twins' father, just a random Hyuuga elder. Their father's picture is just a black silhouette in the databook--if wrinkly guy was him, his picture would have been there instead. Their father's probably long dead, as I don't think Hiashi would be Head otherwise.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-12 10:27 pm (UTC)In Neji's flashback, his father tells him that 'he is the most loved boy [or child? I think boy] in the Branch House', which I always found an ambiguous sentence;
Is this from the anime? Because I just looked through the manga chapter that has Neji's flashback, and the only thing that Hizashi tells him is that he is "to live to protect her (Hinata)". Nothing about him being the most loved child: in fact, that sentence kinda contradicts Hizashi's later sentence to Hiashi, just before he leaves to die: "I've only shown my ugly side to Neji". That sentence kind of makes me wonder if Hizashi wasn't all that kind to Neji himself, though's most likely referring to his open hatred of the Main House.
I'm not sure I follow. I agree with Hinata having always been shy, but I don't see what you mean with the end of the sentence.
"Normal" Hyuuga=cold, pragmatic, unfeeling. The sort of personality that does what needs to be done and doesn't care about the suffering that might come with decisions (hi, curse seal). Neji's databook 2 entry says that he has a "Spartan" personality--he's extremely practical and completely ignores anything that he sees as unimportant.
Of course, this doesn't take timeskip Neji into account, but Neji's personality is much more in line with a "normal" Hyuuga than Hinata's is. One of the ways that Neji taunts Hinata during their fight is to say that she's a horrible shinobi because she's too gentle and avoids conflict. There are many ways you could describe the Hyuuga, but "gentle" is not one of them, and Hinata is definitely atypical in that respect.
wow, tl;dr. Sorry about this...
I like long posts. :D
no subject
Date: 2007-11-12 10:28 pm (UTC)